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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:54 am 
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whew, finally
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Rear 4 link mock-up started. Upper links tacked in. xmbr above them might cause problems, might not. I'll clearance, move it, or remove it, if needed. Making good progress. Waiting on lower link brackets from RuffStuff. Reality set in. I didn't feel like wasting a bunch of time making crude looking brackets when they are so affordable to buy and look so much better. Pics..

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:36 am 
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Location: fife
Vehicle: 88 yj HP 60 front, 60 rear, Detroits, AW4 auto, flipped 300, 37s, mild stretch, linked up
It looks like you are coming along quite well. I would consider cutting out the original cross member and replace it with a round tube that can double as a frame support and a spot for a sway bar like a Antirock in the future. I run stock TJ coils in the rear and found it a bit tipsy, the sway bar made a big difference.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
I like that idea. Definitely was planning on a rear anti-rock mounted somewhere. Might make it right there. Unfortunately no room for coil overs. Not enough space between wheel and frame. I'm not cutting into the frame to make space. I'll just go with the original plan of using tj coils. I'm using OME 2" HD coils. With the weight of my spare tire, rear bumper/hitch, 15 gal stock tank, plus 17 gal aux fuel tank I think it will squish them down to near stock TJ coil height. Maybe 1" over stock height. I hope that's the case.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:12 am 
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Location: Way up North.
Vehicle: '51 Power Wagon
Would there be interference with the body or something else if you made the upper links longer? It will probably work ok, but the pinion is going to dive when the suspension extends down.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:07 pm 
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whew, finally
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Hi JB, I made the uppers 70% the length of the lowers to keep anti-squat from rising much at full droop. If my thinking is wrong, let me know. I don't want this thing to hop on the rocks is why I did that. I'm hoping the pinion will only dive a few degrees. I can tolerate a few degrees. In a few days I'll flex it out and see how things look. The very low pinion of the Ford 9" is definitely not helping me get the most droop possible. I'm regretting my rear axle choice a little. Oh well. Gotta make do. Can't afford to re-axle for many years.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:47 pm 
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Given the difference in angle between upper and lower links in a typical suspension design, you can end up with the uppers shorter than the lowers and not have the pinion dive at all for full down-travel (obviously this is design-dependent and is far from guaranteed!). 70% might still be a bit extreme on the upper length though, I'd make them longer myself. If the uppers and lowers were parallel and you had shorter uppers, the pinion would immediately dive on down-travel. But because upper links typically angle up to the axle while lowers angle down to the axle (or ideally parallel to the ground) there is some amount of down-travel you get where the pinion is still rotating upwards even with shorter uppers.

Also, looks like a SYE might help you get better drive line angles during extension?

In my experience, as long as your transfer case is pointed a bit downwards in angle, you can get a lot of down travel in the back even with a short drive shaft and low pinion axle. I wouldn't sweat it about the axle choice for this reason unless you already know you're going to have problems. On my JK build I have around 8" of down-travel, the front drive shaft is almost twice as long as the rear, the front is high-pinion and the rear is low-pinion, and the front is still closer to drive-line bind than the rear all because of the angle of the transfer case outputs.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:59 pm 
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whew, finally
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
SYE will definitely help alot. It will be ordered soon. I noticed when I was playing around with the 4 link calc there were a few times pinion angle stayed near zero degrees at 7" droop, even with uppers 70% shorter. Was a very fine window. Only saw it once or twice. I'll lengthen the uppers in the calc and check my numbers, but for every inch the uppers are lengthened I loose some triangulation. I do want as much as I can get. Pinion dive with my current config shows 3 degrees down at 7" droop, in the 4 link calc. I'll know more in a few days when I flex it out.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:40 pm 
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Location: Way up North.
Vehicle: '51 Power Wagon
Tipped wrote:
Hi JB, I made the uppers 70% the length of the lowers to keep anti-squat from rising much at full droop. If my thinking is wrong, let me know. I don't want this thing to hop on the rocks is why I did that.


I am far from an expert but I understand what you're trying to do. For me, anti-squat at the limits of suspension travel wasn't critical, but I do try to manage it with link separation percentage at frame vs. axle (you have some adjustment in your brackets), and getting lower links as close to parallel to ground as possible. Sometimes you do have to make compromises while packaging suspension in a Jeep. And don't forget that the upper "70% rule" originated from race car set up, not long travel 4x4's. It is a rule you can bend.

Tipped wrote:
I'll lengthen the uppers in the calc and check my numbers, but for every inch the uppers are lengthened I loose some triangulation. I do want as much as I can get.


You can get away with a little less triangulation since you are double triangulated. It looks like you could bring your lowers together a little more too, if you wanted to.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:13 am 
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whew, finally
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
You're way more knowledgeable than I am on this stuff. I only say things I've read elsewhere and I don't know if they are true. This is the 1st 4 link I ever tried to build, so I don't have experience to help me know right from wrong. I've tried to interpret the info in all the threads I've read, but it's too much and these systems are so customizable. It's easy to get lost in all the different perspectives.

I would like to bring the lowers closer at the frame. I held back on it for two reasons. 1st I've heard it makes the rig handle a little knife-edgy on the street and I don't want that. 2nd I noticed my roll axis angle (understeer in my case) numbers climbed up to 8 degrees when I brought them all the way together at the frame (xmbr). Spread apart 17" the roll axis is 3 degrees (understeer). Seemed better, but I don't know what's actually true on this stuff. No experience.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:34 pm 
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Tipped wrote:

I would like to bring the lowers closer at the frame. I held back on it for two reasons. 1st I've heard it makes the rig handle a little knife-edgy on the street and I don't want that. 2nd I noticed my roll axis angle (understeer in my case) numbers climbed up to 8 degrees when I brought them all the way together at the frame (xmbr). Spread apart 17" the roll axis is 3 degrees (understeer). Seemed better, but I don't know what's actually true on this stuff. No experience.


Yeah, you're probably right about the handling. I've never driven a true double triangulated rear suspension on the street, So maybe sticking with your plan is a good idea. As mentioned earlier, you will want a rear swaybar with coils.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Mock up complete. Cycled from full droop to full compression. 12" of travel looks realistic. 8" down, 4" up (5" if I clearance, or remove the xmbr above the uppers and don't get coil bind). Pinion angle stayed within 1/2 degree of what it is at ride height throughout cycle. It looks fine at full droop. 28 degree drive-line angle at full droop, minus the 5 degrees the p-train is tilted down. That'll work better than what I had with leafs. 1/2" clearance between axle and fuel tank skid at full compression. Nice and tight for max wheel base with stock tank. SYE has been ordered from JB conversions, plus master rebuild kit and new chain. Pics...


Full Droop

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Full Comp fuel tank clearance

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Full Comp xmbr clearance (good side). Other side needs clearanced if I can use 5" compression. TBD. Otherwise it's 4" with no clearancing required.

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Full Comp random pic

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:49 pm 
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Looks great. Definitely get that extra inch of uptravel , it can make a big difference.

What is your plan with shocks?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Thanks Paul! I'm not sure what shocks to use, but I do have just enough room to mount them outboard the frame. I'm using OME HD 2" lift springs for a ride height to match the front leaf springs.

I flexed it out today. No binding. No rear steer. Nothing was close to hitting. More flex than I'll ever use. One of the upper links popped off it's insert when letting the axle down, so now I know why alot of people mock up with DOM instead of PVC and hose clamps.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Make sure you cycle the suspension before you buy and fit shocks. I'm thinking you will lose the coils on droop much longer than 9 or 10 inch. Been a while since I've had those springs though.

Get some tunable shocks if you can, huge difference in ride quality with a good tune in them. I like Fox, Radflo, and King.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Time for an update. 1st 2 pics are C6 vette manifold clearance to Novak mounts. Next pic is the flanges I'm gonna use to hook up the pipes to the manifolds. Following that is just pics of coils/coilbuckets. Final bump stop length to be determined. The springs should settle 3" from where they are now once all the weight is on them. Next up, shocks, SYE , exhaust and fuel lines.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:37 am 
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whew, finally
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Can't a guy get by with some Bilstein 5100's and call it a day? This is not a go fast rig. Well, I should say it's not a go fast offroad rig, but I think you guys already know that?? I still have several grand more to dump into my cooling system, tires, cage, rear anti-rock and seats. The bleeding has to stop somewhere. If you can sell me on why I need a pair of $750 rear shocks for my application I'll do it, otherwise I'm spending $145 on a pair of 5100's.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:17 am 
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Can you get by just fine and be pretty happy with those Bilsteins? Of course. 99% of people on the street or even on forest roads are running shocks that probably cost the OEM $50 tops. Even go to an ORV park and probably 80% of vehicles are running OEM-style shocks (maybe aftermarket for longer length but not really any better quality). Obviously you don't need anything better.

Is there a big deal noticeable difference when running nice shocks that are properly tuned for the vehicle? Absolutely.

You really have to just make your own call based on how great you want it vs. how much money you want to spend (as with just about everything in this hobby).


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:10 am 
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Don't need to spend 750, a pair or Fox 2.0s with reservoirs run 250 each. Could also go with an emulsion for about 180 each.

But yes, very worth the money if you can swing it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:35 am 
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whew, finally
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
1st I wanna say thanks you guys. You always got my back with my stupid questions. I think what I'll do is set it up so that when I'm ready all I gotta do is pop the cheap shocks out and the tune-able ones will bolt up right in their place. If I pay attention to collapsed length and extended length between the two as well as considering clearance issues, it should work, in theory.

On a side note, I was able to re-use my TDK skid. That saves me a bunch of fab. I do need to weld in a new mount surface for the trans mount, but it's gonna be so easy peasy. Routing of the exhaust has begun. Gonna be a challenge getting a 3" tailpipe through those links, but I believe I can do it.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:32 am 
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Routed the exhaust. Pics at full squat. Just 3 welds, 2 hangers and a turn-down to install and it's done. Should clear the rear ds, I hope haha. That super low pinion worked in my favor on that. I got this dang flu going round, so that put a stop to fwd progress, for now. The next 2-3 months will progress faster, I'm hopeful.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:34 am 
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Where did you get the exhaust flanges? Part number?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:46 pm 
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Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Got the flanges off eBay. Just search C6 flanges and a bunch will pop up.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Is the MTR with kevlar tire hard to balance a real thing? People over the years have hated on this tire for it's balancing challenges. I know alot of you run MTR's on the highway here. Snow, I know you have run them for years on Rock Monsters. I just bought a new set of Rock Monsters. Would love your input.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:00 pm 
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Yes, the MTR's truly can be nearly impossible to balance. Sometimes you get lucky. I'm on my second set of 35's now, the first set had 4 that balanced alright but still wobbled and the 5th was nearly useless, never could put it on the steering axle even after multiple tries getting it balanced. You could actually see that it was out of round when spinning it.

All things considered, I found hydro-assist to be mandatory running MTR's or steering shimmies would diverge even with perfectly tight suspension/steering parts. With hydro assist, no problem, on occasion a little shake but it just damped out to nothing almost immediately.

I'm now on my second set, had them balanced after mounting them and they're completely smooth, no shakes at all.

The wheel doesn't matter much, in fact for beadlocks the Hutchinson design is better than most because it has a standard bead mounting system so it self-centers the wheel. Any beadlock means you're probably not going to be able to get a full road-force balance though so that's the big down-side on balancing.


I do really like the tire and will continue buying them in the future, though! You just need a very tight steering setup with a lot of damping and you can run pretty out-of-balance tires. You also could try bead balancing which people have hit-or-miss luck with, although they're not recommended on a double beadlock and it'd be a real pain to get them out if it didn't work which I just didn't want to go through so never tried them.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
I imagine the hydro-assist does help dampen alot. I don't yet have that system, but it is on the list of things to do before this summer. Good info you provided, thank you!!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:22 pm 
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Made some progress. Got the 4L80E rebuilt. All new bushings throughout, new high energy frictions/steels, transgo shift kit, HD torque converter with heavy duty lockup clutch, all new shift solenoids throughout. Should be rock solid for many yrs. Puyallup Transmission. Great shop.

Next, ordered a cable actuated driveline e-brake today from High Angle Drivline. Looks like the pic below, only that's not a NP241 (obviously), but same idea. Goodbye useless caddy calipers, hello positively locking (I hope) e-brake for those moments when a great working e-brake is essential. We discussed the 1350 one ton CV rear driveshaft too. That will be ordered later when I know final length.

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Blew the 241 apart after dinner. Ran out of time to go back together with SYE parts. Why do today what you can put off till tomorrow? Haha, pic..

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Progress 241. Replaced all bearings, snap rings and seals/o-rings. Installed the SYE and gave it a hell of a cleaning inside. Temp put it back together yesterday without sealing anything to check shift function. Didn't have 2 high for some reason. Popped rear case back off and looked around. Nothing wrong found, except shift rail wouldn't slide freely - too dry from the cleaning. Squirted some oil on it, played with the shifter, seemed to work. Temp assembled again and is working perfect. Waiting on a couple more small parts for it, will final assemble/seal later. On to more fab/welding...

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 10:46 am
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Location: Puyallup
Vehicle: 1978 CJ5 Getting stretched, rear linked and LS powered
Installed rear anti-rock. Tacked in for now. Flexed, checked for rub, none. Shocks will mount off the back of the axle. Not much room left. Used the 45" bar and bent arms clear the springs nicely. Gotta cut down the links, too long. Bars are angled up 10 degrees at ride height, don't like the look. Aside from that done. Moving along.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:44 am 
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It's looking great!!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:21 am 
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X2, it looks great man.

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