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 Post subject: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:00 pm 
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On my YJ, I have rear disc brakes but I'm hoping to upgrade the front brakes. Currently running 35" MTR on 15" wheels. To get better braking what do I need to do... 17" wheels and larger rotor? Slotted discs? Different reservoir? I don't want to be on a trail and crash because my brakes failed. Generally I'm pretty aware of my brakes and haven't run into any problems, that doesn't mean I don't want to avoid problems if I can fix it, plus my son might be driving this soon and I want him safe.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:03 pm 
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http://shop.blackmagicbrakes.com/VANCO- ... -NDM15.htm

I remember Paul a while back had said something about these kits and being pretty impressed by them. You might reach out to him and have a chat.


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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:35 pm 
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BIGSTUCK wrote:
http://shop.blackmagicbrakes.com/VANCO-15-Big-Brake-Kit-with-BMB-Pads-for-15-Rims-BBK-NDM15.htm

I remember Paul a while back had said something about these kits and being pretty impressed by them. You might reach out to him and have a chat.


Thanks... I wasn't thinking the cost would be that much to get better brakes but then again I haven't looked for quite a while.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:04 pm 
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An aftermarket adjustable brake proportioning valve would be where I would start.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:20 pm 
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sideshow wrote:
An aftermarket adjustable brake proportioning valve would be where I would start.


I was reading about that as well.

For the money seems like slotted rotors and good pads are a decent way to go, under 2 bills. And I have to replace the rear brakes... problem is remembering what year axle I have :roflmao: I know it's a 8.8 from an Explorer, thinking 95-01. I really should write this crap down.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:30 pm 
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H8 PVMT wrote:
sideshow wrote:
An aftermarket adjustable brake proportioning valve would be where I would start.


I was reading about that as well.

For the money seems like slotted rotors and good pads are a decent way to go, under 2 bills. And I have to replace the rear brakes... problem is remembering what year axle I have :roflmao: I know it's a 8.8 from an Explorer, thinking 95-01. I really should write this crap down.



I found that the factory proportioning valves are set for average drivers. Depending on your ABS option and how effective it is, you can really crank up how much fluid gets redirected to the rear brakes and it makes a noticeable difference. Its just a good start, whichever direction you decide to go.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Assuming they are actually working, adding more rear brake bias will do nothing but make your rear brakes lock up, and you go spinny-spinny. If they are under biased, you will feel some difference, but overall braking won't really change.

The Black Magic kits really are an upgrade, like "holy shit" type braking. The small kit is basically the same as WJ brakes. I've done this swap on my TH, and my wife's XJ, and the braking is fantastic. I could lock up the 35s at will. It's very rare to have any Jeep lock up 35s with stock sized brakes.

Here's is a writeup for WJ knuckles and brakes. Whether you buy a kit, or put one together, it's worth the time and you'll be wondering how you lived with terrible brakes for like 20 years. :D

https://www.jcroffroad.com/blog/wj-brak ... onversion/




If you don't want to do all that work or spend the money, just get a set of Black Magic front pads for your current brakes. They do very well for their size. Better than Hawk or EBC IMO. I have them on my Jeep and truck.

edit: I don't think there is a Black Majic (formerly Vanco) kit for your. I would take the time to call Blaine and talk to him with what you have, see what he recommends. You could go to a TJ knuckle worse case, but not sure how steering would work with your leafs.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:16 pm 
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Paul wrote:
Assuming they are actually working, adding more rear brake bias will do nothing but make your rear brakes lock up, and you go spinny-spinny. If they are under biased, you will feel some difference, but overall braking won't really change.

The Black Magic kits really are an upgrade, like "holy shit" type braking. The small kit is basically the same as WJ brakes. I've done this swap on my TH, and my wife's XJ, and the braking is fantastic. I could lock up the 35s at will. It's very rare to have any Jeep lock up 35s with stock sized brakes.

Here's is a writeup for WJ knuckles and brakes. Whether you buy a kit, or put one together, it's worth the time and you'll be wondering how you lived with terrible brakes for like 20 years. :D

https://www.jcroffroad.com/blog/wj-brak ... onversion/




If you don't want to do all that work or spend the money, just get a set of Black Magic front pads for your current brakes. They do very well for their size. Better than Hawk or EBC IMO. I have them on my Jeep and truck.

edit: I don't think there is a Black Majic (formerly Vanco) kit for your. I would take the time to call Blaine and talk to him with what you have, see what he recommends. You could go to a TJ knuckle worse case, but not sure how steering would work with your leafs.


So you are saying I need a new Jeep basically? :)

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:41 pm 
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x3 the Black Magic stuff is pretty incredible.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:50 pm 
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Avanteone wrote:
x3 the Black Magic stuff is pretty incredible.


just the pads or the whole kit? The pads alone seem to be $125.00 and I'm not sure they fit on the OEM calipers but i'll get a hold of him and ask.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:50 am 
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BIGSTUCK wrote:
http://shop.blackmagicbrakes.com/VANCO-15-Big-Brake-Kit-with-BMB-Pads-for-15-Rims-BBK-NDM15.htm

I remember Paul a while back had said something about these kits and being pretty impressed by them. You might reach out to him and have a chat.


There are 2 things on a car that I don't skimp on when it comes to how I spend my money. Brakes and Tires. Ive seen so many people skimp on these 2 things it makes you hope you never see those people on the road. IMO for your area especially because of the high mountain roads and what not. Id be spending the extra bucks on brakes because of the steep grades you could be on. The brakes on my TJ are OK with my 35s but there were a couple times on the Rubicon climbing on the rocks I had wished I had more power.


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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:27 pm 
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BIGSTUCK wrote:
BIGSTUCK wrote:
http://shop.blackmagicbrakes.com/VANCO-15-Big-Brake-Kit-with-BMB-Pads-for-15-Rims-BBK-NDM15.htm

I remember Paul a while back had said something about these kits and being pretty impressed by them. You might reach out to him and have a chat.


There are 2 things on a car that I don't skimp on when it comes to how I spend my money. Brakes and Tires. Ive seen so many people skimp on these 2 things it makes you hope you never see those people on the road. IMO for your area especially because of the high mountain roads and what not. Id be spending the extra bucks on brakes because of the steep grades you could be on. The brakes on my TJ are OK with my 35s but there were a couple times on the Rubicon climbing on the rocks I had wished I had more power.


agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:58 pm 
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I wouldn't dump thousands of dollars into a d30 and a Ford 8.8. Not to mention the bump steer and track bar relocation because of the WJ Knuckles. So your YJ came with rear drums and at some point someone swapped in an 8.8 with discs? Unless the proportioning valve was swapped out too, it was configured for a little drum brake cylinder, not the larger volume now required by the rear calipers. If this is the case, it would be the difference between marjinal brakes and good brakes and you can save your money for wontons. Calipers with aluminum pistons vs the phenolic can make a difference too. All my phenolic pistons went bad at about 80k miles so you might check that.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:04 pm 
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sideshow wrote:
I wouldn't dump thousands of dollars into a d30 and a Ford 8.8


Is this what you’re working with? What year is your YJ? When I dismantled my 87 YJ brake system the proportioning valve was caked full of gunk and not likely functional. I have Chev 3/4 ton discs front and rear so it would be different for you but a 95 booster and late 90’s/early 2000’s Dodge 2500 master cylinder are alledgedly the cat’s meow for my set up. I’m going with all new lines and an adjustable proportioning valve to dial in the f/r bias. There’s lots of math that goes into brakes for proper volume and pressure so I trust my life with the keyboard geniuses of the PBB :roflmao: Can’t report on the results yet as it’s currently on jack stands, so this is probably a useless post :dunno: You could do this set up for well under $250 but I imagine the brakes on the D30 aren’t up to the task regardless of how much fluid you throw at them.


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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:21 pm 
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sideshow wrote:
I wouldn't dump thousands of dollars into a d30 and a Ford 8.8. Not to mention the bump steer and track bar relocation because of the WJ Knuckles.



You don't know Scott I'm guessing, and his 30 and 8.8 has served him very well for as long as I've known him. I'm pretty sure I helped put that 8.8 together like 15 years ago?

And I'm pretty sure he has no trackbar anymore (may be wrong) so your opinion in a moo point. Yeah, it's like a cow's opinion. It just doesn't matter. :roflmao:







Fubar, you can't dial in more bias to a system that is woefully underpowered already in the front, you'll just lock up the rear early. I've owned a few Jeeps, and when you put larger tires on the stock brakes, it's pretty scary. We just don;t know it because we don;t know any different, until you put larger rotors and calipers on it, then it's like "woah!".

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:04 pm 
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Paul wrote:

Fubar, you can't dial in more bias to a system that is woefully underpowered already in the front, you'll just lock up the rear early. I've owned a few Jeeps, and when you put larger tires on the stock brakes, it's pretty scary. We just don;t know it because we don;t know any different, until you put larger rotors and calipers on it, then it's like "woah!".


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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:21 am 
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When I did the 44 swap on mine, the brakes were ok until I converted the rear to disk. Front and rear are using standard 1/2 ton GM calipers. I put the dodge 1500/2500/3500 (I believe they all use the same one) master in and a prop valve and the difference was huge.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:24 am 
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I'm running the TeraFlex big brake kit on 37's. At first I didn't think too highly of the upgrade, or the expense. But, the first time I had to depend on that extra stopping power I was sold!

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:50 am 
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Interesting topic.. I'm seeing alot of brake systems with same size calipers on the rear... why not run a smaller caliper on the rear? So you get back to the disc up front smallish drum in the rear kinda scenario?


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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:02 am 
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POR wrote:
Interesting topic.. I'm seeing alot of brake systems with same size calipers on the rear... why not run a smaller caliper on the rear? So you get back to the disc up front smallish drum in the rear kinda scenario?


They are supposed to. A good rule of thumb I've learned is about half the size piston area of the front. If not, you may me too much brake bias, one that is solved by an aftermarket adjustable prop valve.


Edit: One large exception are OEM trucks and vans, but they have rear ABS to control rear lockup when unloaded. The Ford vans actually have LARGER rear calipers in the rear. They are massive.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:07 am 
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My choice was based on what was spec'ed for the weld on caliper bracket and using the stock 44 caliper up front. I have not noticed any excessive rear lock up in my set up with the prop valve and 37's.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Paul wrote:
POR wrote:
Interesting topic.. I'm seeing alot of brake systems with same size calipers on the rear... why not run a smaller caliper on the rear? So you get back to the disc up front smallish drum in the rear kinda scenario?


They are supposed to. A good rule of thumb I've learned is about half the size piston area of the front. If not, you may me too much brake bias, one that is solved by an aftermarket adjustable prop valve.


Edit: One large exception are OEM trucks and vans, but they have rear ABS to control rear lockup when unloaded. The Ford vans actually have LARGER rear calipers in the rear. They are massive.


I know they're supposed to be set up like that. I always just bypass the aftermarket proportioning valve by doing the smaller caliper, with good results. I'm actually surprised by the amount of problems with brakes guys are having on here. I never really had much to bitch about jeep brakes.. now Toyota on the other hand....


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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Paul wrote:
sideshow wrote:
I wouldn't dump thousands of dollars into a d30 and a Ford 8.8. Not to mention the bump steer and track bar relocation because of the WJ Knuckles.



You don't know Scott I'm guessing, and his 30 and 8.8 has served him very well for as long as I've known him. I'm pretty sure I helped put that 8.8 together like 15 years ago?

And I'm pretty sure he has no trackbar anymore (may be wrong) so your opinion in a moo point. Yeah, it's like a cow's opinion. It just doesn't matter. :roflmao: .


30 and 8.8 have been great. The 30 is about as polished as you can get, alloy shafts, tera knuckle high steer blah blah. And yea... what's a trac bar? :) I'm sure you did help put in the 8,8 with Kevin - I think almost everyone on this forum has worked on my Jeep at one time or the other :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Fubar73cj5 wrote:
sideshow wrote:
I wouldn't dump thousands of dollars into a d30 and a Ford 8.8


When I dismantled my 87 YJ brake system the proportioning valve was caked full of gunk and not likely functional.


I haven't checked that before and with over 200k on her I'm sure that could be an issue...

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:00 pm 
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Paul wrote:
sideshow wrote:
I wouldn't dump thousands of dollars into a d30 and a Ford 8.8. Not to mention the bump steer and track bar relocation because of the WJ Knuckles.



You don't know Scott I'm guessing, and his 30 and 8.8 has served him very well for as long as I've known him. I'm pretty sure I helped put that 8.8 together like 15 years ago?

And I'm pretty sure he has no trackbar anymore (may be wrong) so your opinion in a moo point. Yeah, it's like a cow's opinion. It just doesn't matter. :roflmao:







Fubar, you can't dial in more bias to a system that is woefully underpowered already in the front, you'll just lock up the rear early. I've owned a few Jeeps, and when you put larger tires on the stock brakes, it's pretty scary. We just don;t know it because we don;t know any different, until you put larger rotors and calipers on it, then it's like "woah!".


Everyone here has probably owned several Jeeps, a D30 and most likely an 8.8. How can you argue against adjustability in this context? Yeah, it may lock up the rear early at first, but its adjustable. You're right, I dont know scott, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt he wouldn't go "spinney spinney" before he removed some rear brake bias. Polishing a D30 is one thing but you're suggesting 2k in brakes alone. That's like two polished D30's. He could have a spare. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:12 pm 
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sideshow wrote:

Everyone here has probably owned several Jeeps, a D30 and most likely an 8.8. How can you argue against adjustability in this context? Yeah, it may lock up the rear early at first, but its adjustable. You're right, I dont know scott, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt he wouldn't go "spinney spinney" before he removed some rear brake bias. Polishing a D30 is one thing but you're suggesting 2k in brakes alone. That's like two polished D30's. He could have a spare. :lol:



So, what is your recommendation for better front brakes? What axle comes with better brakes that he should swap in? The Explorer rears are just fine, he just needs better front brakes.


I probably had like $300 in my WJ brake swap. The Vanco kits are like $1k. Not sure where your maths are confagluated. :) Not sure why one would be against spending money on stopping well, with as much as we spend on our hobbies.

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 Post subject: Re: better brakes...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:52 am 
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Paul wrote:
sideshow wrote:

Everyone here has probably owned several Jeeps, a D30 and most likely an 8.8. How can you argue against adjustability in this context? Yeah, it may lock up the rear early at first, but its adjustable. You're right, I dont know scott, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt he wouldn't go "spinney spinney" before he removed some rear brake bias. Polishing a D30 is one thing but you're suggesting 2k in brakes alone. That's like two polished D30's. He could have a spare. :lol:



So, what is your recommendation for better front brakes? What axle comes with better brakes that he should swap in? The Explorer rears are just fine, he just needs better front brakes.


I probably had like $300 in my WJ brake swap. The Vanco kits are like $1k. Not sure where your maths are confagluated. :) Not sure why one would be against spending money on stopping well, with as much as we spend on our hobbies.


Plus everyone's situation is different. "polishing" a D30 is different than just upgrading the brakes on something that has lasted him a VERY long time. Knowing how the OP wheels and uses his jeep, upgrading brakes in this situation will keep him on the trail for many more miles down the road.


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